PS004 - Safer Sexy Sex, Roadtrips and More with Scott Thomson
This month on Erotic Awakening, join me as I sit down to interview Minnesota sexuality educator Scott Thomson about how to make safer sex sexier and sexy sex safer! Along the way we answer listener questions, discuss my cross-country moving adventure and fundraiser for Camp Ten Trees (we raised over $750 for them) and much more. Scott is a delight, and has tons of great ideas.
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[music intro]
Announcer:
Welcome to Erotic Awakening, a weekly view of all things erotic. From BDSM to erotic spirituality, from swinging as a lifestyle to simply fun kink, each week we bring you a diverse offering of erotic and alternative lifestyles in its many forms. This podcast includes frank discussions of highly sexual topics. This podcast is intended for consenting adults over the age of 18. If you are offended by this type of content, we recommend you stop listening right now.Lee:
Hello fellow adventurers of sexuality and spirit, and welcome to Erotic Awakening with Lee Harrington.During this monthly show, appearing on the third Monday of every month, give or take some minor scheduling issues, I'm here to discuss my thoughts, ideas on given topics, but also to answer listener questions that have been sent in ahead of time. I intend to announce the show topic a month in advance, so that way you can take the time to write in if you have questions.
Now, this month's topic here in April is discussing with Minnesota sexuality educator Scott Thomson, questions around safer sex, making it fun and steaming, and of course, of course, talking about our road trip that we've had over the last week, crossing from Phoenix, Arizona to New York City, where I'm currently sitting in my beautiful space in Brooklyn, and taking in a great adventure as we went along the way.
Now, next month, the topic is going to be around Dominance and submission, Mastery and slavery, and specifically around the sacred calling of these paths. For those it is… for those that it might be more than a sexual choice, it might be a spiritual choice, it might be an emotional choice - a calling that they have to heed, a devotional path, if you will.
So, that's going to be next month's topic. If you have any questions around the notion of a sacred, spiritual, religious, or emotional calling to mastery, slavery, or dominance or submission, or whatever you call it, please send your questions into Lee, L-E-E, at passion, P-A-S-S-I-O-N, and A-N-D soul, S-O-U-L, with the subject line, “Ask Lee.”
And if questions aren't responded to on the podcast, we're going to be getting to them on my Ask Lee column on Passion And Soul. And that includes this month's podcast. If we don't cover stuff that you were hoping to discuss or hear about concerning making safer sex sexy, or sexy sex safer, or safer sexy sex sexy and safer, then feel free to send it on in, and we will have Scott, or myself, or someone else hopefully, answer some of those questions and get back to you with some answers.
We are, if nothing else, a fabulous Rolodex of big ideas, and occasionally, you have ideas that we haven't even thought of. So if you have ideas to share, send those in too, because our community only gets better if all of us share our tales.
But as I said, joining us this week is Scott Thomson, who began his career as a sexuality educator at the University of California at Davis in 1991, shortly after attending the Folsom Street Fair for his first time. He worked for Planned Parenthood for nearly a decade as a reproductive health specialist and sex educator in Northern California, with a focus on HIV and STI prevention. As a trainer, Scott has developed curricula and provided training for healthcare professionals and educators, to help better address their clients' needs, focusing on sexuality and HIV and STI treatment and prevention.
Based now in St. Paul, Minnesota, Scott's a Leatherman, craftsperson, and outspoken activist, continuing to do outreach work wherever and whenever possible. Always an innovator, Scott's workshops are dynamic, interactive and entertaining. With a focus on nuts-and-bolts skills, communication, and self-discovery, Scott's approach is geared towards both new and experienced community members, and offers something for everyone.
And I am delighted to say Scott is also a friend. Welcome to the podcast, Scott.
Scott:
Thank you very much, Lee. It's a pleasure to be here.Lee:
Yeah, we've had quite the whirlwind week, haven't we? (laughs)Scott:
That's one way of saying it, for sure. Yes, that was a fair amount of time spent behind the wheel of the U-Haul, for sure.Lee:
For those who don't follow passionandsoul.com or see my stuff on FetLife or Facebook or any of the other social media out there, I have just completed my move from Phoenix, Arizona to New York City. And instead of just driving a U-Haul from one coast to another, we decided to actually have it be a teaching tour. Or I should say, I did through the great enlightenment of all of my spiritual experiences that said that “road trips can go wrong, teaching tours always go well in my world.”So we started out last Monday in Phoenix, Arizona, where you flew in from Minnesota.
Scott:
That’s right.Lee:
Yeah, and had crazy packing, going away parties, and then headed out on the road.Scott:
That's right, yeah. Light on the sleep, I think, was one of the themes. But when there's so much to do, and such a great opportunity to get into communities and see what people have going on around the country, it really made me an incredibly humble and proud member of this community. It was really an incredible treat to see.Lee:
Absolutely. To have the folks at Self-Serve Toys in Albuquerque open up their doors for this fundraiser, which part of the proceeds went to paying for the gas for crossing the country, but everything else that we raised is going to Camp Ten Trees, which is camptentrees.org, which is a summer camp for LGBT youth, which is lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered for people who don't follow all the acronyms out there in the world.And they also have a second track for the children of LGBT, polyamorous and kinky families to be able to go to summer camp and be completely normal and say, “Hi, I have three mommies.” And to have the person next to them say, “That's cool, want to go play frisbee?” And have it not be an issue. So the folks in Albuquerque were absolutely great.
Scott:
And then our longest leg from Albuquerque to Tulsa, that was, I think, on MapQuest it said it was 11 and a half hours.Lee:
But in reality, it was closer to 12 and a half, 13.Scott:
Yeah, that took some time.Lee:
Yeah, and teaching - so teaching the night before, doing stuff specifically for Rope For Sex, and then having to show up in Tulsa and do an appearance, and fabulous discussions on rope bondage, connection, intimacy, and then having some really great dialogues around the notion of spiritual Leather families, and just getting to stay with Master Malik.Scott:
Yeah, anytime you get to hang out with Master Malik, it's going to be a treat. I can't get enough of him, he's fantastic.Lee:
I tend to refer to him as one of the sages of our Leather community, a beautiful gentleman, who is involved in a 24/7 Master/slave relationship with his slave Cathy.And he's written two pieces for my anthology, Spirit of Desire: Personal Explorations of Sacred Kink, that just took my heart away. One, on the experience of being a Sufi gentleman who was asked to nail someone's hands to a cross. And where does that sit with your spiritual journey, which just - the story took me away. And the other one on romance and love, and its place in mastery and slavery. He is an absolute gift to our community.
Scott:
Absolutely, absolutely. And a great example of - one of the things that I really cherish about what this community affords me is, it gives a commonality with people from many different generations, walks of life, life experiences, and that I've always loved having friends from different generations, different age groups. And that's never been truer with Master Malik. I feel very honored to consider him a friend.Lee:
Yeah. And talk about that notion of generations - it was really exciting the next day to get to St. Louis, Missouri, where we were hosted by KUFF, which is Kinksters Under Forty Having Fun, I believe. I'm not sure on that second F, it might be another word that isn't “fun” and involves an F-U and a couple of other letters as well. But… (laughs)Scott:
It starts with F, anyway.Lee:
It starts with an F, anyway. But they hosted their Kinky Prom on Saturday night, which was this beautiful collection of people in actual prom dresses, to running around naked in nothing but some jewels, or a woman who was there dressed as Snow White, which was really, really fun.And to get to, again, do - it was a big rope week. And do another rope bondage class for a group of sixty some odd folks, and then another probably forty people that showed up to the party, all getting to have the naughty prom that they never got to have. With ages ranging from barely 18 to some folks who were in their late 70s, and early and mid 80s, and everything in between.
Scott:
Everything in between. It was really, really a treat to see. And there were a fair number of outfits that consisted only of strategically placed electrical tape (Lee laughs), which I thought was - both made a great statement, and because what do you do - an asterisk? Do you do a cross? And how is that cross oriented? So really amazing that you can make a strong personal statement by how you choose to orient the electrical tape.Lee:
That's hilarious. And that was hosted at the Charenton Social Club, which is a beautiful up-and-coming dungeon space in St. Louis. And downstairs, they just opened up, not them, but another organization in the same building, opened up a space called Shameless Grounds, which was so beautiful and so opening. And the food was really excellent. So if there's St. Louis folks listening, check out your new space there, Shameless Grounds.Scott:
Absolutely. Great food, really fantastic atmosphere. And something I thought was really creative is they have a lending library there. So if you pick up a book from their shelf and you're not done reading it, you can actually sign up with the staff there to borrow that book and finish it at home or elsewhere. That was really cool.Lee:
Yeah, which is really great to see spaces like this hopping up all over the place. Right now in San Francisco, there's a space called Wicked Grounds, and I'm going to be there on April 18th, so very, very shortly, in about a week from when this podcast goes live, and doing a book signing for Spirit of Desire with seven or eight of my authors there in the Bay Area.Though they are, unlike Shameless Grounds, which is just opening up its doors, Wicked Grounds is doing fundraising right now to see whether it might have to close its doors. So to see the ebb and flow cross-country, to see places like St. Louis booming and bustling with new spaces, and places like San Francisco risking the closure of the Eagle, the closure of Wicked Grounds, the consolidation of Mr. S into one main shop, the experience of Lyon-Martin there in San Francisco, also challenged by funding - for all kinds of stuff around LGBT sexuality and general health care in the Bay Area.
It's fascinating to be in America right now, where we've got the rider for Planned Parenthood to have the funding removed from it nationally, having been removed from the last budget rounds, which is fantastic. And then you turn the corner, and as we were driving through Pennsylvania, giant billboards saying, you know, basically, if you have an abortion, you're wrong, and there is no such thing as evolution. God created the earth, there were no monkeys from humans, as giant billboards as we're driving through Pennsylvania.
Scott:
Yeah, it is really interesting to see the regional differences and realize how quickly things change.Lee:
Oof.Scott:
Once you get out of, oftentimes, just the city limits of the blue strongholds, as we look at the political map of the US.Lee:
Absolutely. And it was really interesting to me as we were driving, doing the long leg from Albuquerque to Tulsa, we actually got pulled over by Texas state troopers. We were going three whole miles over the speed limit.Scott:
I'll take responsibility for that. I was speeding. Those three miles were definitely illegal. Yep.Lee:
With out of state plates, because we were driving a U-Haul cross-country. And there was this moment, because Scott got pulled out of the vehicle, and then I later got pulled out of the vehicle, and the questions of “where do you guys know each other from?” And I decided, let's just see what happens to be honest, because I'm not really big on camouflaging much of anything. And so I said, actually, both of us are sexuality educators and know each other through events in the Midwest.And so he offered to fly down and help me drive because I have epilepsy, and therefore can't drive myself that distance. And he just looked at me and said, “sexuality educator?” And I'm like, yeah, you know, like Planned Parenthood. And the kind of pause… processing… processing. “All right, sir, I'll be right back.” Right?
But it was really nice that we didn't actually, even with the minor flubs that we did have along the way, nothing really impeded the long term success of the journey.
Scott:
Absolutely not. It was - it really did go off without a hitch. And it's always very reassuring to me to know that the skills that I've developed here on this planet, and they stand me in good stead when faced with opportunities for adventure and fun. That it's nice to be prepared to take advantage of such a situation.Lee:
And that kind of concept of “the skills that you've already developed on this planet” was something that we ended up talking about with some of the folks in Tulsa, especially, and St. Louis, the notion that just because you're new to the scene doesn't mean you're new to life. Just because you're new to polyamory doesn't mean that you're not, doesn't mean that you're new to communication or relationships.Scott:
Yep.Lee:
And so the idea of extrapolating the wisdom that you already have, and applying it to different situations that might arise, was a reoccurring theme on this trip when having conversations with people.Scott:
Absolutely, and while some folks call it bondage, other people have learned it as macrame.Lee:
(laughs) Absolutely, absolutely. And one of the things that was really nice - the last two legs that we had was staying with Barak and Sheba, who are the producers of Winter Wickedness and COPE in Ohio, when we got to Columbus, Ohio, with “Bonus Unexpected Indiana” in the middle. We didn't realize the freeway was going to take us that way. And then finally getting to Pittsburgh, by way of three miles of West Virginia.And when we got to Pittsburgh, getting to connect with people in really interesting ways, having a dinner with some of the people who wanted to do additional donations to Camp Ten Trees in exchange for having really in-depth conversations with us on all kinds of topics.
And then what was supposed to be us teaching two separate classes, which was going to be Sensational Safer Sex on your part, and me doing Rope And Breath, turned into “Safe Rope Breath Sex.”
Scott:
It was a total mashup. And that was a little anxiety provoking, because it didn't really… We didn't immediately see the connection between the two classes, and so it was a challenge.And to actually take the time to sit down and work through, “well, so if we have to do this, if we get the opportunity to do this mashup, what's our starting point?” What are the common threads between bondage and breath, and sensational safer sex?
Lee:
What tends to happen a lot for me, at least, as a sexuality educator, and I'm curious about the experience of other sex educators listening to this, is that we often develop our classes in the vacuum of our own brain in our own living rooms, our own offices. Where it's, okay, we've been asked to do a class on the notion of authenticity in our sexual experience. Great. Where do I start?Well, I start with my journey in finding my own authenticity, and then I tease out the threads there, and then I arrange it based on how my brain works. And then I go to things like teaching theory and think about, oh, well, am I involving enough kinesthetic learning experiences? Am I involving enough stuff that will reach out to the introspective as well as the extroverted-type students?
I then break it down to things like that. I rearrange everything, put it all back together, toss it up with a little bit of salad dressing, make it a little bit funny or a little bit approachable…go!
But when I'm bringing to the plate some tarragon vinaigrette salad and you're bringing some charbroiled steak, do we serve them side by side? Do you eat a little bit of the steak and then have your salad, and then eat a little bit more steak? Do you devour the salad first and then order the steak? And if so, what if you filled up on the salad by that point? What do we do?
Scott:
And what do you do when you show up to the grocery store expecting to be able to get mixed organic field greens, (Lee laughs) and all they have is a head of iceberg lettuce?Lee:
Right.Scott:
Yep. It's really interesting. It makes me think of my own personal journey with food allergies and other food restrictions. I think we're all pretty used to, at this point, dealing with the vegetarian contingency and its different maturations. And I clearly remember the first time that I had to put together an appetizer that was vegan. And I had no idea what to do! And I was even a vegetarian at the time.I'm not saying one of the reasons I live in the Midwest is because I love cheese, but I have had times in my life where I have had passionate love affairs with cheese. And it turns out I'm allergic to dairy. but that's a whole other story. (laughs)
Lee:
Though, if we were being total cerebral metaphorical nerds, as we have been being this week, by the time the podcast goes live, there will be a journal blog entry up about the notion of dance and music styles and its parallels to negotiation techniques in the kink community.But if we take that metaphor, that notion that when we show up somewhere, and we're told we have to make something in the ways that we're going to make it, where do we go? We go back to the drawing board, we start doing research. We hop online, we have long conversations in our rolling couch of conversation known as the U-Haul.
Scott:
That's right. And with these, what I've found time and time again, as I face new challenges and am handed restrictions, it really gets my creativity flowing. It gives me a wonderful opportunity to go back to the drawing board and look at what I've been doing and try something new. And oftentimes, I find that these restrictions can actually lead to incredible freedoms, and great insights, and wonderful new directions that you really weren't expecting.Lee:
Yeah, I think sometimes in the sexuality populations, when we hear things like, “these are my limits and my boundaries and don't you dare cross them,” there's this feeling of feeling caged in? As compared to something that sexuality educator and current International Ms. Leather, Mollena Williams, said to me once, which is that they're not limits. Limits are things that limit us. They are frameworks.They are the paddock. They are the fence around the paddock that a horse can go up to the edges of and feel the freedom of moving inside of. That notion that when I'm told by somebody, “oh, I'm sorry, I can't do a spanking scene,” that doesn't mean, oh, no, I can't do a spanking scene. It means, oh, neat, what else do we get to do?
What other opportunities arise if we meet a single no, I'm sorry, I can't do dairy, right? Or, hey, by the way, can you fit both of your guys' classes into two hours in the same room? These opportunities for adventures come up. So what were some of the different themes that we had come up?
Scott:
Well, I think one of the really strong commonalities between both topics that we were teaching was - it really does require a very strong sense of personal responsibility.Lee:
Ooh, yeah, absolutely.Scott:
In both roles, whether you're the rigger, or the top, or the bottom, it requires a tremendous amount of personal responsibility.So when you show up for a sexual encounter, it's the responsibility of both -
Lee:
Or all participants!Scott:
- all parties, yes, to show up with what they need to be able to respect what are hopefully their predetermined boundaries around safer sex and disease prevention.Lee:
And that also comes with awareness, not just awareness in the moment, which is incredibly important with both bondage and breath and safer sex, but awareness in advance of the realities of the bodies that we're playing with. Not the idealized porn bodies, not these perfect bodies that we read about somewhere in a magazine, but the bodies that we're actually playing with.And so, for example, if we're dealing with or being aware of everything that we need to be aware of, I know a lot of people who say, “oh, well, I'm setting all of my standards based on HIV prevention.” And I go, well, are you playing with blood? And they're like, well, yeah. And I'm like, well, HIV dies outside the body within 30 seconds, as long as it completely dries. Puddles of blood, separate conversation. But hepatitis C, on the other hand, is an encapsulated virus that can live for weeks outside the body.
Scott:
Yeah, and some studies say, even, months. It definitely lives very well on hard surfaces in hospital settings, which is what they're largely testing for, when they're seeing how long it lives outside the body.Lee:
You mean no one is doing studies right now on the details of how long the herpes virus will sit on a piece of rope?! (gasps) I'm shocked.Scott:
No, but that kind of thing really makes me want to write grants.Lee:
Yes.Scott:
Because not only would it just be interesting to write the standard operating procedures for how you get herpes onto rope, (both laugh) It would be a really fun, very groundbreaking research study. There really isn't any research on how long is the hepatitis C virus going to live on rope.Lee:
Or leather.Scott:
Or leather, or a piece of dungeon furniture. And that kind of stuff could be generalizable into other analogous situations that the larger population would come into contact with, like health clubs and things like that.Lee:
Absolutely, yeah.Scott:
Think of the similarity between a play party at a weekend conference and a gym. You know, they're very similarly designed apparatus, that are getting used quite frequently in heavy rotation, and folks may be wearing something skimpy and they may be sweating.Lee:
And it's one of the reasons that when I see people at kink conferences complain about the fact of, “oh, I can't believe I can only do blood in the blood area. I mean, I'm not going to be leaking all over the place.”Well, it's not a 0% chance that you will, right? It's not a 0% chance that you will be having blood, and concerns that we have around sweat are different concerns than having actual blood-borne pathogens ending up in porous material surfaces like that massage table that you're laying on. Why not prep it ahead of time and go over into the bloodsports area where everything is set aside, where everything is tarped off on the ground, and where at the end of the weekend, that tarp is disposed of just in case anything is concerned.
Unlike, and I am not kidding, this was back in 2001 - I went to an event where I was helping out with the dungeon equipment and dungeon crew because this is back when I used to do that kind of stuff. I find that my approach to DMing is not the approach that everyone takes, which is that in my opinion, DMs are there to scrub the shit out of all the equipment ahead of time and leave all of the cleaning equipment in place for 15 minutes to let it actually do its job, instead of spraying it on, wiping it off, and therefore doing the effectiveness of TSA security.
Scott:
Absolutely.Lee:
So I was there doing deep cleaning of equipment, setting everything up, and then our job in the event was to make sure that everybody got water, if there was people needing water. That if anybody passed out, that we would make sure that supplies were taken over to the tops, so that the tops could take care of everything. And to make sure that people needed equipment moved, we moved the equipment.Our other job, at least with Rossi out in England in 2000, was to get the party started, because kids in England, nobody wanted to be the first people on the dance floor. So literally, if there was no party going after 20 minutes of the dungeon being open, we drew straws, and whoever got the longest two straws, the two people paired up and went and had fun. Somebody else got to do it, right?
Scott:
Now that's a snowball that I could get excited about.(both laugh)
Lee:
Exactly. And it was really interesting to me, this moment, as I was pulling apart a gyn table, a gynecological exam table that was going to be in the space, pulled it out, and we pulled out the stirrups and pulled everything up because it had been donated to us. There was, caked in human debris, whether this was dried blood, or dried cum, or I have no idea, that had to have been there accumulating for six to eight years. Like, it was just an experience to bear witness to. Wow. And to feel my personal revulsion, and then to scrub the hell out of everything.I would rather know that if I go to the bloodsports area, that at the end of that event, that crew, that event, is going to take apart that bloodsports area and scrub the hell out of it, and set it aside for six months to 12 months and let it completely air out.
While they might be taking those massage tables or that St. Andrew's cross or whatever that has leather that isn't being protected, and they might be using it for a play party next weekend. I'd rather use the right gear for the scenes that I'm doing.
Scott:
Absolutely. Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. And it really can be fun to play by the rules sometimes. (Lee laughs) And that's something that I think our community can be very challenged with.Lee:
Yeah.Scott:
We really like to push envelopes and to get very creative. And it is very challenging to not see restrictions as limits, but to see the restrictions as the framework. And realizing that just because the canvas is coming to you already in a frame, it really doesn't change your ability to paint a pretty picture.Lee:
Yeah. And people don't always realize that - I went to an event not long ago, and they had a big thing up about no breath play of any sort. And I'm like, okay. I then went to the event producers and said, what does that really look like? And they're like, oh, well, it means no strangulation and no this and no that. Because if you do that, it nullifies our entire insurance rider for the entire event.And I was like, wow. Can you give me the exact details on - and this was outside of the content of the event, right? - I was then asking because I saw the rules before I went to the event. So this was asking before the night of the play party, I'm not going to argue with an event producer the night of the play party.
Scott:
Right.Lee:
That's just rude, they're already stressed out enough as it is. But so I wrote them ahead of time and said, well, what is that? Can I get the exact description of what's the problem for the insurance rider? I got the description and I said, oh, so Tantric breathing is okay! And they said, well, yeah, of course. And I'm like, oh, thank you for the clarification. You were using a word that meant something to me different than what it meant to you, thank you so much for being open to letting me ask questions.And a lot of event producers will let you ask questions as long as you do it respectfully, and before or after the event, not during the middle of the play party, complaining that you can't pull your gun out in the middle of the play party. Can we talk about this in a non-heated, non-charged space where the producer might even be trying to get laid? (laughs)
Scott:
Good plan. And then the trick is to find those non-charged, non-heated spaces.Lee:
Absolutely. Last thing that we found as a common thread between our two classes was that we have to set our standards high, because if we set our standards high and then get really turned on and really charged, if we slip from 120% to, as my friend Wintersong Tashlin says, if you slip from 120% to 90%, it's not perfect, but at least you're better.Scott:
That's right. Definitely when it comes to game time, there's a whole different set of circumstances that need to be negotiated. And, you know, when we're working with rope, it's really common to set aside some time that could be social, but it's outside of the dungeon, it is not in scene. It is not in play space or with play energy, but to get together with a few friends and actually practice working with rope, or practice other skills within our lifestyle. And the same thing applies with your safer sex toy bag.Lee:
Absolutely.Scott:
And actually getting your hands onto your tools, seeing what they look like in the light of day, when you're not in a heightened state of awareness and arousal and in a hurry, perhaps.Lee:
(laughs) Yeah.Scott:
And really get some practice, because that really is the key factor in using barriers successfully, is to be able to use them correctly, and be able to do them with skill during “game time” moments. So yeah, practice with your rope, practice with your impact toys, practice with condoms, with gloves, and with dental dams.Lee:
And in the case of rope, there are some people who are like, oh, well, I've only ever seen nylon rope, and so therefore that's all I can use. Well, actually, if you hop online and type in “types of rope,” you'll find 20, 30 different types of rope that you can try out, and see which ones actually appeal to you. Buy five or ten feet of eight or nine different things, and see which ones really, actually feel good to you, not what you saw the presenter do.Same thing for condoms. There is not just one kind of condom out there. There are Snugger Fit, and there are Magnums, and there are Swirlhead, and there are Narrow Taper, and there are Tuxedo, which are narrowed down at the base. Try out - get an entire sampler pack, and try them out while you're masturbating.
Scott:
Absolutely. When I was first on my journey of using condoms 100% of the time for any penetrative sex, I really - I felt like I was facing a big challenge. Because in my mind I had bought in to the, “well, condoms decrease sensitivity and it's not going to feel as good.” (Lee sighs) And so I made the shift and I said, well, if I'm going to use condoms, then I'm going to figure out the way to make it feel as good as possible.And I experimented with a bunch of different condoms, both on my own and with partners, and found one that I really liked. And the first time that I put that condom into a “game time” situation, I actually found myself stopping to check and make sure that it was still on. And that was completely mind blowing to me, that I had found a condom that worked so well for me that I couldn't tell that I was wearing it.
So I had completely negotiated my own judgment and my own resistance, and had cleared the path to not only make it easier for me to use condoms every single time, but to like it. And to know that I had invested in my own health, the health of my partners. And that meant I could completely relax and really get into what I was doing and feel great about it. Five minutes after it was over, the next day, six months later when I was sitting in the clinic waiting for my test results. And yeah, that, definitely. That was eye-opening.
Lee:
I see a lot of people who will say, Oh, well, I'll just play, you know, I trust this person, I'll play bareback just this one time. And then the next day it's, oh, was that the right choice? And then wondering that question for the next six months. A lot of people don't realize that various STIs can sit dormant in the body, or not appear on tests for quite some time.Scott:
Absolutely. For a long time. There are some that have incubation periods of years.Lee:
And what that means is that if I am partnering with somebody for the first time, and we do make the decision we are going to play bareback, or we are going to have this be a really serious commitment within our relationship, and we're going to choose to move from working with condoms, or working with dental dams, or working with gloves, and moving to a different arrangement - it's not about going to the clinic today, and both getting tested today, and showing your little piece of paper today.It's… who else have they played with in the last six to nine months? What's, like, maybe we should wait for six to nine months, et cetera. Because I see a number of couples, especially within communities where there needs to be, especially in the polyamory community where it's the idea that, “oh, well, you're my primary partner and I can tell because we're bareback.” This is the special little thing that you get that none of my other partners get.
Scott:
Right.Lee:
And sometimes I see this transition happen in ways that, you know what, we all make choices and we're all consenting adults, but I don't think everybody realizes what exactly they're consenting to. It's not informed consent.Scott:
Right. And fluid bonding, that can be a legitimate form of infection control.Lee:
Absolutely. Yeah.Scott:
Absolutely. However, it is a lot more involved than just saying, well, you're my primary partner, and so I'm only going to be fluid bonded with you, and there we go. And it's a lot more involved. It does require a commitment, a waiting period, and actively getting information about your own status, your partner's status.Lee:
And looking at what your procedures are with other people as well. Like, what are your standards for cleaning equipment? Are you going to the EPA website to see if this is actually an actual microbial germ killer, instead of being rubbing alcohol, which basically moves dirt around, but won't kill a lot of stuff out there?Scott:
But it sure smells like you're doing something because it's really stinky. Yeah, the EPA website has a very extensive list of the hard surface cleaners that are effective against, particularly, hepatitis C, HIV, tuberculosis, herpes.Selecting cleaners that are off of that list and then following the directions on the bottle makes a huge difference. A lot of people think that, well, this is an EPA-approved cleaner, so spray, spray, spray, wipe, wipe, wipe, we're good. Many of these cleaners do need to sit for a period of time. Sometimes it's not more than three minutes, but it does need that three minutes in order to be effective.
Lee:
And that means for myself, when I'm at a public event, even though I saw somebody clean it beforehand, I'll go ahead and I'll grab the bottle and while, and spray everything down and let it sit, and then lay out all my tools, and make out with my partner for a little, bit and then go over and wipe everything down, and then get the dance going. There's no harm in incorporating it into the beginning as well as the end of our process at events, public or private.Scott:
See, there you go. It's the framework. I could see a situation where you could very intensely spray down the bench, and then set an egg timer (Lee laughs) and look sternly at your bottom and say, I am not going to touch you for three minutes and you will sit there and suffer. That'd be kind of funny, but fun, hot, whatever. (Lee laughs again)But you see, folks, it's the framework. The canvas is still blank. You can paint beautiful pictures. (laughs)
Lee:
So thinking of painting beautiful pictures, I have a couple of questions from people who have written in, that I want to talk about, concerning safer sex, and making safer sex sexy.Scott:
That don't involve egg timers.(both laugh)
Lee:
So thinking of keeping it fun and making it interesting, I've got a great question here from someone who wrote in, which is, “my question is, how do you get dental dams to stay put when you're using them? Also, maybe this is just my problem, and you can laugh at me or ignore it, but when I get really into eating pussy, the latex sticks to my face and I can't breathe. I know that I can just pick my head up, but when she's that close to coming, you just don't want to stop. Maybe I'm using it wrong? I don't know. I had read all the instructions, but it never seems to help. Do you have any tips?” So, tips for keeping dental dams in place.Scott:
Yes, indeed. When you read the instructions, it will show a two-handed approach to holding a dental dam in place. So holding the top and bottom of the dam and using that to keep it in place over any area which you wish to stimulate orally.Lee:
Right, so that could be vaginal, this could be anal. This could be in an area where, say, somebody has a fresh nipple piercing, and cross-contamination would still be considered an open infection site, same thing can apply.Scott:
Yes. So there are many different ways that you can hold the dam in place and use a one-handed technique to just hold one side. That way you have your other hand free to - for instance, if you've got the dam stuck to your face, you have a hand free to give yourself a little bit of breathing room. Hopefully for enough time for the critical moment to come to fruition. (Lee laughs)So using the belts on a corset or a girdle.
Lee:
Okay, so like using a garter belt or something like that.Scott:
Exactly.Lee:
Or actually if you don't have garter belts, say someone, like that's just not part of their fashion experience, you can do the same thing with those little plastic corners that hold bedsheets in, that look just like garter belts. They're a double-ended garter belt, you attach one to the top of a t-shirt, and suddenly butches can wear it too.Scott:
Yes. Nipple clamps are something that folks frequently have in their toy bag. And I think that in a group of perverted minds, it would be pretty easy to figure out how to get one nipple clamp on the nipple, connected to a nipple clamp that would be holding the corner of the dental dam in place. And so that not only can you create tension on the whole system by holding the dam in place, but you still have one hand free.Another thing, a great pervertible for dental dams are embroidery frames. So going to a place like Joann Fabrics or Michael's, and finding the appropriate sized and shaped embroidery ring. And then you can use that to just stretch your dam over the embroidery ring, rather than holding it in place, you're just holding the ring in place, and it works fantastically. And that really cuts down on the sticking to the face experience, because it can keep the dam under a tiny bit of tension, so that it's really easy to keep it in place.
Another thing that I really like to do when I'm using dental dams is, I keep a Sharpie in my toy bag for many reasons, but primarily because when I'm using dental dams, I like to write “my side” very clearly on my side of the dental dam. That way, if it ever gets flipped over and it is no longer my side, it does not say “my side” when I look down and read it. Some folks do struggle with keeping the dams from flip-flopping, so I really like to do that. Because again, then, it takes a millisecond for me to make sure that I'm still licking on my side of the dam, and I can get back to business rather than try and figure out which side is facing me.
Lee:
And a technique that I learned from Maitresse Betka Schpitz, who was a pro-domme in Portland, Oregon for many years, is if dental dams aren’t the right size and shape for you, invest in a nice pair of really tight latex hot pants that are reusable, that you can use over and over and over again, and look really hot for wearing out to a play party. You don't have to be sitting there and holding anything, they stay up because they're shorts. It's a financial investment, and this is now your tool to have on your body. But for some people - her entire campaign for safer sex was called Just Suck It Already, and her argument was that we don't have to do latex barriers. We do latex barriers because they're hot.Scott:
Absolutely…yes, indeed. The latex barriers are hot. When they come in pants forms, check seam locations. If that's what you're going to be using it for, check seam locations because you don't want to have glue as your barrier, you want to have latex as your barrier.Lee:
Right. And there are some latex companies that if you write to them and say, hey, this is what I'm looking for, they're willing to change up their patterns for your specific desires.Scott:
They will happily accommodate you, I am sure.Lee:
So another question we got here, which is also on oral sex, this seems to be quite the theme. We've worked on a couple of the other things that people were wondering about, in the conversation so far. “But in the BDSM community, dental dams and safe oral sex are the norm. But in the swing community, although condoms are the norm for penetration, safer sex regarding oral sex, it's often frowned upon. Is eating pussy and sucking cock really that dangerous, and can I catch AIDS from oral sex?”Scott:
That's a great question. Starting with the question, “is it really that dangerous?” This is a topic that is hotly debated, and getting numbers on how dangerous it is, is very difficult. Finding a sample size large enough so that it's generalizable to the population, and isolating oral sex as the risk factor, is incredibly difficult. What we do know is, there are cases of HIV transmission from oral sex. It happens. We know that it happens.There are many county health departments across the country right now that are seeing significant increases in throat infections with chlamydia and gonorrhea. So folks are getting chlamydia and gonorrhea in their throats. It is happening. It is a risk.
Herpes, of course, can be transmitted through oral sex, as can the human papillomavirus. There are certain strains of the human papillomavirus, which causes genital warts, that can actually cause infection in the mouth as well.
Lee:
Which is the full name for HPV, for people who are used to hearing the acronym.Scott:
That's right. Human papillomavirus, HPV. So, we know that there are risks. We know that it does happen.So one of the things that I like to think about is the history of the AIDS epidemic. So there were behaviors among men who have sex with men, in the ‘70s and early ‘80s, that created a perfect vector for the transmission of a blood-borne pathogen. Because of the things that we choose to do in our alternative sexual lifestyles, we're going to be a community that could be at risk if something new comes along.
Lee:
Mm-hmm.Scott:
So I like to think of it in, not only about what is out there, and what are the chances of getting something that is out there, I like to think about it in terms of - what is it that we're not dealing with yet, that we're going to have to deal with, and erring on the side of caution.If that's not something that you can wrap around your brain, or wrap your brain around, without getting depressed - another way that I like to think about it is - look, I really don't want to take a couple of weeks off from doing everything that I want to do because I need to get my throat treated for gonorrhea. I mean, that just doesn't sound like any fun.I don't want to go into the clinic. I don't want to have to take antibiotics. I really don't want to get gonorrhea in the back of my throat. So making healthy choices, so that I can do what I want to do, when I want to do it, in a way that I enjoy tremendously.
Lee:
And there are some people, so condoms and barriers are obviously one route to that choice making. Another is having long-term discussions with partners who we actually trust their behavior patterns. Just because somebody says that they don't have X, Y, and Q doesn't mean that they don't have it, A, if they're malicious, or if they just don't know, because they don't realize that the person that they played with three partners back had something. It's not always about ill intent or maliciousness.Scott:
For sure. It's actually a really common scenario with herpes infection. Long term, monogamous relationship, where nobody is cheating on anybody, and then all of a sudden a partner gets infected with herpes. It's almost impossible to tell how long ago that virus entered into the picture. It's quite common that herpes can lay dormant for years and years and years and years, and all of a sudden crop up because of other stressors, because of...Lee:
And people forget that chickenpox is a herpes virus.Scott:
It is indeed.Lee:
It's the same exact family, which means that just like if I get chickenpox as a kid, people assume, oh, I got over it. Actually, chickenpox stays inside your body your entire life, which is why you'll see people who are suffering from really other illnesses like full-blown AIDS, where suddenly, because of the stress factors on their body, that chickenpox comes back up because the body thinks, “oh, we have no restraints anymore. I'll go out and have this virus come back to life.”Scott:
Yes, indeed.Lee:
So we have barriers. We have partner choices and awareness. We have the notion of forgiveness, that sometimes it wasn't anybody's fault and there wasn't any cheating, so don't jump to those conclusions just because something comes into the situation. We have the notion of research, of looking into the current information, because we get new stuff every couple of weeks. New information comes up, so staying abreast of the current material. Any other ideas you could have?Scott:
Looking outside of the box. So seeing what, like if you're interested particularly in oral transmission, there's some great research studies that the dental world has done on blood-borne pathogen transmission through the oral cavity. Seeing what other similar activities, like wrestling, martial arts, mixed martial arts, seeing some of the things that they have to deal with in their community, and how they're choosing to do it. Things like defense soap, which can help cut down on staph infections, and ringworms, and things like that.Lee:
And both of those are actual concerns in both the swinging and polyamory, well, swinging and BDSM communities.Scott:
Absolutely.Lee:
And as a note, thinking of swingers, having heard this sentence from the owner of a swinger club only about seven years ago, just because you “don't let any bisexual men into your club,” is not a way to reduce concerns for STIs and STDs. Wow, when I heard that come out of his mouth, I just stared dumbfounded and went, A, how do you know? And B, what the hell? That makes no sense when it comes to actual applications. So if you ever hear a club or a group say, “we reduce the chances of STIs and STDs by simply not letting gay men or bisexual men or people who use drugs into our club,” that kind of logic is not fully rational.Scott:
Absolutely. There have been many times when I've asked people in the course of doing HIV test counseling, how do you practice safe sex? And to hear a surprising number of people say, well, I don't sleep with bisexual men, so I'm good.You know, it really comes down to how people choose to identify. And bisexual may not be an identity that someone has, even though they have sex with men. It’s very common -
Lee:
Or women who have sex with women.Scott:
Exactly.Lee:
Where it's, no, that's girls' night out. And of course, I'm a heterosexual woman, I just happen to have girls' night out twice a year. Right? Sex In The City.Scott:
Absolutely.Lee:
Sex In The City is an entire movement of clubs in New York, LA, etc. for straight women to get together and have women's nights out on a quarterly basis. It's the Sex In The City Club.So yeah, and another thing to consider as well is the notion of what your definitions of safer sex are. Because I've had moments where I've said to someone, by the way, I practice safer sex, just so you know ahead of time, that's why I'm flagging black and white checker out of my back pocket. It means that I'm a safer sex person looking for other safer sex people. And I have people go, oh, I'm safer sex too, and what that means for them is condoms for vaginal and anal sex. And I'm like, oh, well, I also use gloves for putting my hand inside someone. They're like, oh, well, that's, I don't consider that part of safer sex. The same words may mean different things to different people.
So any last thoughts you want to send our audience home with?
Scott:
As a pervert myself, and the perverts that I know and spend time with, I know that we all spend a lot of time perverting items that you normally wouldn't see in play scenarios, into really kinky and evil devices.What I would like to suggest to people is, take a look at that tray at the next toy, at the next party you go to, that tray of condoms, and gloves, and dams, and lubes, and take a minute and think, all right, how can I incorporate this into my scene?
Let's take a look at taking our safer sex tools and perverting them, and making them a part of our play, rather than something that is separate. That you make that awkward run into the other room to grab a condom, and then come back.
Lee:
So spanking with gloves off and then with gloves on for two different textures might be an option.Scott:
Absolutely. Incorporating condoms into a CBT scene. So figuring out ways to use condoms for interesting torture on sensitive bits. There's all kinds of options out there.Lee:
And if we're coming from more of a swinger population, or polyamory, or sensual populations, because not everybody who listens is hardcore SMers.Scott:
Right.Lee:
Incorporating sensual touch into massaging and rolling a condom down, or using that dental dam as a texture device, flowing it up and down over the body as a sensual technique. Great option for combining it into our sensual sexual experience.Scott:
And I guarantee if you're rubbing a dental dam all over your partner's body before you use it, they're going to have some questions for you afterwards. “What the - what was that? That felt amazing. It felt like you were tickling me with a feather.”Lee:
(laughs) And now we're building a Pavlovian reaction towards using those tools that we are going to be using anyway. Love it.So thank you again so much, Scott, for coming out and joining us here on the podcast for Erotic Awakening.
Scott:
Absolutely. Folks, if you're interested, I've got some Smart and Sexy workshops coming up. I will be presenting Smart and Sexy at ShibariCon in Chicago. That's May 26th through the 30th. And then in Minneapolis at Northern Lights and Kinky Nights. That is September 16th through the 18th.Lee:
Beautiful. And you can find Scotty online at Scotty, S-C-O-T-T-Y 4-1-5. That's Scotty415 on fetlife.com. And also we'll be building a website shortly, so he'll be announcing that on his website, on his FetLife page once that's up and running.Scott:
That's right.Lee:
So, reminder for next month's topic, we're going to be discussing here on the third Monday of the month with Erotic Awakening with Lee Harrington. We're going to be discussing D/s and M/s as a sacred, spiritual, emotional or personal calling. The notion of Dominance and submission, or Mastery and slavery, as a vocation and personal path. For those questions, feel free to send them to lee@passionandsoul.com with the subject line “Ask Lee.”And you could also contact me and drop me a note pretty much anywhere on the internet by searching for Lee Harrington. And you'll be able to tell which one is me and which one is the other Lee Harrington. She writes dog walking books, she is not me. Or you could find me with Passion And Soul on Fetlife.com, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, DeviantArt and more.
[outro music]
Thank you again, fellow adventurers, for joining me for one more month of exciting podcasts. New adventurers of sexuality, adventurers of spirit, thank you for taking the time to be here with me in this adventure.
This has been Erotic Awakening with Lee Harrington. And until next time, stay cool, have fun, be authentically you, and don't do anything I wouldn't do, which luckily isn't very much.
Have a fantastic journey.
Announcer 1 (dawn):
Lee Harrington is a passionate spiritual and erotic educator, gender explorer, eclectic artist, and published author and editor on human sexuality and spiritual experience. He joins the Erotic Awakening team for a monthly podcast every third Monday of the month. Find out more about Lee at www.passionandsoul.com.Announcer 2 (Dan):
Erotic Awakening is sponsored in part by Adventures in Sexuality, Central Ohio's kinky fun group. Visit Adventures in Sexuality at adventuresinsexuality.org.dawn:
And thank you for joining us on Erotic Awakening. Please help support our podcast by rating us on iTunes. This helps to let us know what you think about the podcast, as well as making it more visible to others.Dan:
Erotic Awakening is grateful for the support of The Kink Shop. The Kink Shop provides quality merchandise at affordable prices, and features various BDSM implements for lifestylers, by lifestylers. Visit them online at www.thekinkshop.com.dawn:
And Erotic Awakening also appreciates the support of Maui Kink, creators of distinctive and superior toys for the Kink and BDSM community. Visit them at mauikink.com. And don't forget to select that you heard about them via Erotic Awakening on the checkout form.Dan:
Music heard on Erotic Awakening is provided by Pocket Universe. The music that has been crafted and designed for scenes that range from sensual to dynamic BDSM can be found at www.pocketuniversemusic.com.Dan and dawn:
Bye, Lee!
