PS011 - Environmentalism, Sustainability and Sexuality with Asrik

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In this month’s podcast, I interview sexuality educator, and environmental activist, Asrik. We discuss sustainability of the environment as well as kink communities, the notion of fate, compersion within polyamory, relationship dynamics, the notion of reducing waste… and finding ways for everyone, and the planet, to get the best end of the deal.Join us as we explore desire, faith, sex, passion… and falling in love with our planet through consent with all living things.

Passion And Soul Podcast:

Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-passion-and-soul-podcast-by-lee-harrington/id840372122

RSS Feed: https://feeds.acast.com/public/shows/660e243b2f834f0017de9181

Erotic Awakening Network: http://www.eroticawakening.com/podcast/

Asrik contact information:

http://cartographersoftransgression.wordpress.com https://fetlife.com/users/349846 http://twitter.com/#!/Asriksrava

Environmentalism and Game Theory resources mentioned:

Ishmael by Daniel Quinn : http://astore.amazon.com/pass-20/detail/0553375407

Cradle to Cradle by Michael Braungart : http://astore.amazon.com/pass-20/detail/0865475873

The Ecology of Commerce by Paul Hawken : http://astore.amazon.com/pass-20/detail/0061252794

Worldchanging by Alex Steffan : http://astore.amazon.com/pass-20/detail/0810997460

Worldchanging website : http://worldchanging.com/

Finite and Infinite Games by James P. Carse : http://astore.amazon.com/pass-20/detail/0345341848

Sacred/kink books mentioned:

Radical Ecstacy by Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy : http://astore.amazon.com/pass-20/detail/189015962X

Sacred Kink by Lee Harrington : http://astore.amazon.com/pass-20/detail/055721176X

Spirit of Desire edited by Lee Harrington : http://astore.amazon.com/pass-20/detail/0557992419

Dark Moon Rising by Raven Kaldera : http://astore.amazon.com/pass-20/detail/1847288928

Sacred Pain by Ariel Glucklich : http://astore.amazon.com/pass-20/detail/0195169433

Spirit + Flesh by Fakir Musafar : http://astore.amazon.com/pass-20/detail/189204157X

Lee’s Sacred Kink Books Collection http://astore.amazon.com/pass-20?_encoding=UTF8&node=11

Events mentioned:

Dark Odyssey, DC/Maryland : http://www.darkodyssey.com

AIS, Ohio : http://adventuresinsexuality.com/

Twisted Tryst, Indiana/Wisconsin : http://www.twistedtryst.com/

Circles of Kink, Ft. Meyers, FL : http://www.circlesofkink.com/

Sacred Pleasures, London : http://sacredpleasures.co.uk/

Sacred Sex Roundup, NYC : http://www.sacredsexroundup.com/

Movies mentioned:Scenes of a Sexual Nature : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0475380/

The Brothers Bloom : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0844286/

(not mentioned by Asrik wished he had in an environmentalist context) Princess Mononoke : http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119698/

Fetlife groups mentioned:

Hard polytheism – https://fetlife.com/groups/13864

Sacred Pain – https://fetlife.com/groups/20261

Spirituality & BDSM – https://fetlife.com/groups/388

BDSM and Spirituality: The Spiritual Side of Leather. – https://fetlife.com/groups/1029

What is Poi (pronounced Poy)

Lee’s Upcoming Events/Appearances:

http://passionandsoul.com/appearances/ 

Lee Harrington Contact Information: 

http://www.FetLife.com/passionandsoul  

http://twitter.com/#!/PassionAndSoul  

https://www.facebook.com/lee.harringon  

https://www.facebook.com/passionandsoul  

Support the Passion And Soul Podcast – Join our Patreon today!

https://www.patreon.com/passionandsoul

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    [music intro]

    dawn:
    Welcome to Erotic Awakening, an educational and entertaining exploration of all things erotic. From sacred sexuality to fetishes, power exchange relationships and Leather life, BDSM to polyamory, as well as simply fun kink. Each week, we bring you a diverse offering of erotic life in its many forms. This podcast includes frank discussions of highly sexual topics. If you are offended by this type of content or prohibited by law, we recommend you stop listening right now.

    Lee:
    Hello, fellow adventurers of sexuality and spirit, and welcome to Erotic Awakening with Lee Harrington. This monthly show, appearing on the third Monday of the month, explores the intersections of sexuality, spirituality, kink, romanticism, and everything else that just kind of comes across the desk, as you know, sometimes.

    During the past two months, I've gone out into the world without a map, out into the internet, with my own thoughts, concepts, and ideas. I've journeyed from gratitude to romance, freedom to world travels, the challenges in life to where we sit with tribe. And it's been different than where I used to go for the first nine weeks of the podcast. Excuse me, nine months. I was, before, announcing ahead of time who our guests were going to be, or what the topic was going to be so people could write in ahead of time. But I've been getting really good feedback from kind of… going out on my own adventure. So we're going to try to do that again.

    This time, I'm back to one of the favorite things that I love to do, absolutely adore doing, which is interviewing people that I find fascinating, interesting, funny, or complex. And this time, I'm really delighted for discussing that intersection between spirituality and sexuality, to invite my podcast, Asrik.

    Asrik:
    Hi, Lee. I am so glad that I could be here. I've been a follower of the podcast for a while, and I really look forward to talking about these topics with you.

    Lee:
    Fantastic. So, for people who don't know Asrik, he is a really fascinating character. I grabbed your bio ahead of time, so I hope you'll bear with me as I kind of pore through everything. [laughs]

    Asrik:
    Do your worst.

    Lee:
    All right, let's bring it on. So Asrik is a presenter, kinkster, and body modification enthusiast, and he's also an explorer of the otherworldly who's been part of both the pagan and BDSM scenes for over a decade. He's actively engaged right now with teaching classes on kink, facilitating scenes, doing profound rituals, and chronicling his experience for the BDSM community. Asrik has worked and facilitated rituals with leading figures of the pagan and spiritworking communities specifically, such as Raven Kaldera, Wintersong Tashlin, Galina Krasskova, and Anya Kless. He's a member of Clan Tashlin and has played an active role in shaping that clan's direction since it was founded.

    Over the past year, Asrik has been a frequent sight for the Seattle Center for Sex Positive Culture - which is one of my favorite places, I absolutely adore them - and has been part of their TNG Rain City excursions. His newest passion is creating a space to chronicle the transformative experience for those who have been working with body modification and kink, to experience their own personal journeys and exaltation. That website, for people who are interested - and we’ll include this in the podcast notes - is cartographersoftransgression.wordpress.com.

    However, Asrik is here today, and for this podcast, because he and I have been friends and also spiritual co-explorers, I think is a good term, for a number of years now. And we also share a profound passion for the works of Daniel Quinn and Michael Pollan, which is great, yay. And we're also both environmentalists from a spiritual perspective, not just a theoretical perspective, which is a nice thing I enjoy as well between us. And we're also big international travel enthusiasts. So welcome, welcome, welcome. So let's get started, shall we?

    Asrik:
    I'd love to.

    Lee:
    All right. So you and I were texting back and forth ahead of time, because we're both bit of social media mavens from time to time.

    Asrik:
    Addictive.

    Lee:
    Yeah, Twitter, Facebook, FetLife, what else are we on right now? I'm on Audioboo.

    Asrik:
    LinkedIn.

    Lee:
    LinkedIn, yeah, I've got friends who are trying to get me on to that system.

    Asrik:
    It's overwhelming! But you want more.

    Lee:
    Yeah, it's true. And I think we could have an entire conversation about the notion of social media and its effect on sexuality and effects on tribal culture. But maybe…

    Asrik:
    You could maybe write books about that. And there probably have been.

    Lee:
    There probably have been. It's true. But when we were talking ahead of time on text message, we were talking about the notion of love and sustainability. And looking at relationships, and looking at the notion of how sustainability, from an environmental perspective, kind of ties into this thing we do in polyamory, in kink, in BDSM, and in body modification communities as well, as where is this notion of sustainability, of culture? And the first thing that you brought up, which I think was an interesting place to start from, is the notion of game theory. So I'm wondering if you could kind of explain this for people who aren't aware of game theory.

    Asrik:
    Well, okay, the perspective I'm coming to this is a wonderful book called Finite and Infinite Games, which was written in, I believe, the 1960s. And it's a philosophical and political theory book, about perspectives on the world, and specifically relating to game theory. So much in politics that we look at are zero-sum games, where there's a winner, there's a loser, and that's that. That's the end. And the perspective that the author of this book brings is that… life isn't really like that. We are in an infinite game, where the life will continue on regardless of whether the current event of the day is “a win” or “a lose” for presidential candidate X or presidential candidate Y.

    And this is something that really interested me, because I feel that that perspective of looking at the long term will increase the number of projects that we do that are sustainable, that last a long time. And the specific reason I mentioned it is, although the author spends a lot of time in the book talking about politics, and philosophy, and religion, there's a little bit where he talks about relationships, and how love should be an infinite game, where we should be bringing the perspective to our relationships and our love, that this is not something that is an open and shut book. I mean, we look out in our culture, and we think, “oh gosh, my, there's that hot girl over there, but she has a boyfriend, so I can't be with her.” Or “this relationship I had is now done, and I must never speak to this person.” Maybe, best case, we can be distant friends. And if we bring a more playful attitude, and look at our relationships as something that are cycles that we move through in our life, I just feel like we can make our relationships more meaningful and more sustainable.

    Lee:
    Yeah, I've been sitting a lot recently, with having talked to people as I travel and whatnot, with the fact that I meet a lot of people who say, “Oh, God, I can't believe I wasted the past six years of my life.” Or “I can't believe that I should have been doing…” Or “why didn't I get involved with kink, or polyamory, or whatever 30 years ago? If only I'd been able to do that” - instead of being able to look at how these have all been different cycles in their life, that they literally could not have been where they are now, without having experienced those things before. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that.

    Asrik:
    Well, I'm certainly not one to tell a person, you know, you're wrong, you haven't wasted your life. But I do feel like you… if you're coming into the kink scene after, you know, not knowing about it for many years, you come to it, you bring a perspective that someone who's very young and coming into it can't possibly bring. You might be able to bring a kind of patience, the gravitas, and wholeheartedness that someone who is in their late teens, early twenties, can't bring. They're still figuring out what it's like to be an adult. And you can come and participate in the scene, or in a new relationship, in a way that someone who hadn't had those experiences couldn't possibly bring to it.

    Lee:
    When you were talking before about the notion of game theory, one of the things that really struck me was the idea that it's not “a winner or a loser” situation. And I see that sometimes happening both with spirituality populations and with sexuality populations, that idea that if they get something, I lose something. If that part of the population is winning, then my part of the population is losing. Or even in interpersonal relationships, “oh, if I couldn't see that person, then I'm obviously losing,” and whoever got to be with that person was somehow the magical winner in the game of Yahtzee, right? Is that kind of where you're coming from with it, or am I kind of taking it on a different direction?

    Asrik:
    No, no, that's absolutely where I'm coming from. And it's something I've certainly struggled with myself, personally, is investing so much in a relationship because I think, “oh my gosh, if I don't do this now, then it's never going to happen.”

    Lee:
    Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah.

    Asrik:
    Or if I don't do this now, then, oh my gosh, was it meant to be? Will I regret it for the rest of my life? And the perspective I've come to now, in the place where I'm in my life, is that I live a life in the hands of the gods. And by that, I don't mean I just passively move through the world, but I accept that fate has an important part to play in my life. And it's a part that needs to be respected.

    And for example, using what we talked about before, if there was someone out there who was with another partner, and I thought, “oh gosh, my life is over because I can't be with them right now,” and I have this amazing connection with them, I would sort of take a step back and say, okay, what is fate saying about this? Maybe this isn't a bad thing, because I have all of these other opportunities. And that's not going to assuage me, in the midst of my crush. But it's a perspective that I found that's useful.

    Lee:
    Aiden and I were on a bus ride from Baltimore back to… I think it was Baltimore. Anyway, we were on a travel, on a bus, and we ended up running into this couple who was coming to… That's right, we were going from New York down to Baltimore for the Master/slave Conference. And we ran into this couple who was wearing shirts from Austin. And I'm like, “Oh, Keep Austin Weird, yay!” Kind of, you know, shout out to all my Austin friends, all that kind of stuff. And they were wearing the shirts that said, Keep Austin Weird. So we started a conversation, because I was in Austin not too long ago.

    And during that conversation, we find out that the two of them have known each other since they were six years old. And we're like, “Really? That's really cool. So you guys have been together for how long?” And they said, “Oh, less than a year.”

    Asrik:
    Whoa!

    Lee:
    And we're like, “Wait, what do you mean?” They're like, “Well, we were elementary and middle school sweethearts. And even had crushes on each other into the beginning of high school. But then our lives went really different directions, really different directions, different life approaches.” You know, she was a cheerleader or something like that, he ended up going into electronics and, like, all these very different directions with life. And it was really interesting to hear that they just, you know, she went off and got married to someone else, he went off and had multiple relationships. And here they were, in their late 40s, and they randomly ran into each other on Facebook.

    And that notion you were talking about of bringing a new maturity to it, but also that notion of fate tied in, where they ran into each other on Facebook and they're like, “Oh, let's strike up a conversation.” And literally within two months, both of them were like, “You, where I am in my life now, you make sense. You make perfect sense. You would have made no sense to me 10 years ago.” Both of them said that. That if we’d come into each other's lives when we were in our early 30s, it wouldn’t have made any sense. But when they ran into each other in their 40s, suddenly after two months, they're both like, “No, really, this is exactly what it needs to be.” And they've been together less than six months when he proposed marriage to her.

    Asrik:
    That's a beautiful story. And I absolutely agree. And I also feel like we need to be able to accept that, to accept that now is not the right time. And then that doesn't need to be an agonizing or wrenching thing. Especially as we are going into a time when people, you know, given good luck, are living longer and longer, and living healthier longer and longer.

    I have a similar story. I know - or knew - a woman who met - who was high school sweethearts. Had a high school sweetheart, and exactly the same thing happened. They… just it wasn't right for them to be together in college. And then they got together, and got married, when they were in their 80s.

    Lee:
    Wow!

    Asrik:
    Reconnected after 60 years. And you can - it can be time, it can be distance. But I feel like, you know, romantic comedies tell us that there is the “one true love,” and you know, you only have one chance to get this right, and I really think we need to move away from that.

    Lee:
    Well, have you, thinking of movies and romantic comedies, have you seen Scenes of a Sexual Nature starring Ewan McGregor?

    Asrik:
    Oh no, I haven't.

    Lee:
    So Ewan McGregor is actually like the sixth character down the line, but everybody else is, you know, actors who most people haven't heard of. Well, English small time actors, and it was an indie film. But there's, what you were talking about, they ran into each other in their 80s. There was, there's a scene, because it's the plot lines of four different, you know, pairs of people, and how they interweave with each other, and how they all end up running into each other all in one park in one afternoon.

    And this old woman, who's in her 80s, you know, somewhere between, you know, late 70s to early 90s, is sitting on this park bench. And a guy comes and sits down next, and she's, you know, at this park bench for most of the morning, and comes down, the guy comes and says, “hey, can I share the bench with you?” And she's like, fine, whatever. Gentleman in her same age bracket. And she eventually, they eventually start revealing their stories to each other. And she goes, “yeah, I've actually been coming to this exact park bench every single Wednesday for the last, you know, 60 years, because I made out with the boy of my dreams. And I've never seen him since then because he was, you know, going off to some other part of his life. But I've been hoping that I'd run into him again. I've been coming here every single Wednesday since then, hoping that I'd run into him.”

    And he said, the guy paused and says, “it's not Wednesday.” And she said, “what?” He's like, “it's Tuesday.” She's like, “no, I'm fairly certain that it's Wednesday.” And he's like, “no, it's not. It's Tuesday.” And she goes, “what?” And he's like, “I know it's Tuesday because I've come here every single Tuesday, because I've been coming here for the last 60 years… [Asrik laughs] …waiting for the girl of my dreams to show up.” And she's like, “we met each other on a Wednesday. And why are you here anyway if it's on a Tuesday?”

    And so it's this very cute little interaction where they both realize they've gotten the day wrong, or whatever it was, right? And so they decide to walk up the hill together, and walk from there to a different view to just kind of get a different view of life. And halfway up the hill, as he's talking about what's going on for him, and they're both talking about the different people that they've married, and the kids they've had, and all that kind of stuff, she actually stops and says, “I think I need to go now.” And he said, “but I found you after 60 years, I finally found you.” She went, “no, I realized that you found your dream, and that I have run into my dream, but you're not my dream. You're a real man of flesh and blood. You're a real person and I've been projecting a thing that is not you. I've been projecting a story of a boy that I once loved for the last 60 years. And of course you can't be him anymore. We're both somewhere else.”

    And to me, that notion of combining that idea that “fate happens” and whatnot, but also with our projections, is this fate, or is this a story that we've been just perpetuating onward and onward? And in that notion of sustainability, which you brought up earlier, how can we actually have sustainable agriculture, sustainable environmentalism, sustainable relationships, sustainable cultures, if all we're doing is projecting a story instead of looking at the realities of who and what we are?

    Asrik:
    Well, I think that's the most important problem, when we talk about sustainability, is the narrative, the story that we tell ourselves about our culture. And briefly, I feel like I really should define what I'm talking about when I say sustainability.

    Lee:
    Please.

    Asrik:
    When I say sustainability, I am talking about meeting a present need, without compromising the need of the future. A future me, or a future intellectual, or romantic, or environmental need.

    Lee:
    Right.

    Asrik:
    And I think the point that you've hit on is absolutely the most crucial one that we can ever emphasize, in our goal to be sustainable, and especially when it comes to environmental sustainability, is the necessity of changing the narrative. And the narrative we've had for a long time, or I should say the narrative our culture has had for a long time, is that rising standards of living, and economic growth, and untempered resource use are progress… without significant detriments. And there are a whole bunch of other attitudes and ideas that are tied in with the story that we're enacting. And if we want to be environmentally sustainable, not just in token manners by splashing solar panels on rich people's houses. [Lee laughs] If we want to be environmentally sustainable truly over the long term, the most important thing we have to do is change the story that we're enacting.

    Lee:
    One of the things that you and I have talked about in that direction is the notion of different ways that people approach being green, for example. Would you be willing for people who are listening at home to kind of frame out those different types of green?

    Asrik:
    Sure, yeah. And I got this and adapted this from a wonderful resource that I would recommend to everybody called World Changing. I believe the website is still worldchanging.com.

    Lee:
    But we'll double check that and post it for them.

    Asrik:
    But it's called World Changing, primarily headed by a wonderful man named Alex Steffen, who came up with these different ways of describing ideas and perspectives on environmentalism and environmental sustainability. And he divides it up - And this is my memory and my interpretation, so don't quote me on this exactly.

    Lee:
    Or quote it to you.

    Asrik:
    Or credit me, don't credit him without checking. But there are people who I would call “light greens,” and these are people who believe in the idea of environmentalism, the idea that the non-human world is worth saving, and actually engaged in doing this. And they're doing things at the level of personal responsibility, maybe working on energy efficiency, maybe installing different light bulbs. And they're doing it because they feel like it's the right thing to do, it's just the right thing to do.

    The second group I would talk about are people who identify as “bright greens.” And these are people who believe that the environment is worth saving because it's the smart thing to do, because things like climate change, peak oil, peak water, are coming in some form or another at some point, probably pretty soon. And the smart thing to do is to invest a lot of money in technology, and to build a brighter future which is environmentally friendly.

    Lee:
    Right, so this is a lot of the people who are investing in creating all of the woods that are all made out of sustainable materials, and building houses out of things that can actually be long-term sustainable.

    Asrik:
    Exactly, these are people who are talking about infrastructure, like wind power and solar power, on a big scale. Some of them are even talking about geoengineering, sort of a technology-focused approach to environmentalism and saving the planet.

    Lee:
    Got it.

    Asrik:
    The third group I talk about are people I would call “dark greens.” And these are people who are very deeply engaged in the idea of environmentalism, and often feel like a lot of the ways that we, in our culture, are living… won't work. And so many, but not all of them, are not super enthusiastic about capitalism. Some of them are what I would call sort of “back-to-the-land" people who are interested in going back to a way before there was lots of technology in our lives. But sort of the theme I see when I look at them is that they are doing this because we have no choice.

    Lee:
    So the notion there is that the pale greens, just to kind of sum up, make sure I'm on the right page, is that the pale greens are folks that feel like they should do this. The bright greens think that it's a smart thing to do, and the dark greens feel that there is no real choice but to do this.

    Asrik:
    Yes, that's my interpretation.

    Lee:
    So if that's the case, and we've got these three different vibrancies of green, what are your thoughts on applying this notion to different vibrancies of either the pagan community, or the body mod community, or the kink community? Do you think these models could apply?

    Asrik:
    I think you'll find different colors of green within all of the communities you mentioned, and I feel like there are connections with all of them. I definitely see people in the kink community who are very enthusiastic about technology and gadgets in the same way that bright green folks are. But the way I start to think about these ideas of environmentalism and sustainability within the sex communities, is the attitudes and perspectives they bring on relationships.

    Now, I'm not going to be arguing that people in these communities are inherently more environmentally sustainable, in fact, often the exact opposite. But I do believe that these communities have beliefs which lend themselves to being environmentally friendly, if one were to so choose it. For example, in the kink community, the idea of having good boundaries and having the awareness of limits is very important. I mean, Safe, Sane, and Consensual is part of the BDSM 101, which everybody gets - or hopefully - lots of people are introduced to when they come into the scene. And one of the most famous books on environmental sustainability is called Limits to Growth. [Lee laughs] And I feel like the idea of the acceptance of limits, and the necessity of being aware of what our boundaries, or what our horizons are, is something that can really lend itself to sustainability.

    The second thing that I feel lends itself to sustainability is - within the kink community, by and large, there's no one way to be. I mean, you don't have people who are heavy into the D/s, shaking their fingers, and people who are mostly into it for the sadism and masochism, saying, “You're doing it wrong, you can't do that. That's not right, we think you're a horrible person because you're doing this stuff with pain.” And I feel like that's another aspect that really lends itself to being environmentally sustainable, because part of the story that I feel our culture is enacting that makes us environmentally unsustainable, is that we are saying there is one right way to live, where you have a house, and you have a job, and etc., etc., etc.

    The third area, that we touched on a little bit before, is the flow of relationships, and having an ability to be flexible with our relationships. And I feel like our relationships should be like poi moves, moves where you're spinning poi, where you're in one cycle, where you're spinning the poi one way, and then you can move into another way. And it's kind of this infinite cycle of circles. And when I look at, say, the poly community and the people who really impress me in that area, they approach their relationships like that. This is an infinite flow of change and evolution into relationships, changing relationships, maybe out of relationships. And if we aren't set, if we aren't too rigid, and can bring that to our approach to environmental sustainability, I feel that can be a lot healthier in the way we interact with stuff, for example, not being so rigid about having to have all of this stuff, which needs to stay in one place, which has to be in one way.

    Lee:
    That's interesting. I'm - my brain and heart right now are sitting with the notion of where does, you know, because you're talking about the notion of being judgment-free, right? Of “there isn't one true way,” and that we need to apply that to life at large, and to our approach to environmentalism, and our approaches to relationships, and all that. But that hasn't been my experience with a lot, with not “a lot,” but with swaths of the community I've seen, there is still a desire for a one true way, or a projection of somebody's true way onto somebody else. And as I'm sitting with that notion, where it comes to in my head is the idea of, well, is that a story, it comes full circle, right? Is that a story that's stopping us from being able to bear witness to the diversity on this planet, the emotional diversity, the environmental diversity, the spiritual diversity, all of those kinds of things? Like, are these stories of one true way-ism, across the board, blocking us from that potential?

    Asrik:
    I would, first of all, I would sadly agree with you that in the kink community and the BDSM community, there is a lot of people who are not as enthusiastic about diversity as I would want. However, I contrast that with the people who are interested in BDSM, and I see, often, even less of an interest in diversity.

    Lee:
    If we look at this as a percentages game, as compared, you know, percentages, or just sheer numbers game, it is a better percentage, I would say, in both the pagan and the BDSM communities. And it doesn't mean that there's not, you know, the occasional intolerant human being in any of those populations. Of course there is. It's part of the current story of humanity. And it kind of sends me that I say, “of course there is,” because I long to dream a day where that is not the case, where we all can live in each other, you know, live beyond each other's stories.

    Asrik:
    Yeah.

    Lee:
    But there is a part of me that has a cynicism right now.

    Asrik:
    I can completely understand that.

    Lee:
    Yeah, there is another media reference that still makes me laugh right now, and it's one of the ones that I think could hopefully apply, is the movie Brothers Bloom, which is another romantic comedy. And there is a moment, and the idea of it is that there are two con artists that are going after a rich girl. And there is a scene near the end of the movie where one of the brothers says, “you don't understand, the best con is the one where everyone thinks they've won.”

    And that notion of sustainability - I look forward to a day, and maybe that day is tomorrow, and maybe that day is today, right? But I look forward to a day when somebody goes, “I'm so glad that I have the opportunity to save that spotted owl. I totally win by doing that.” [Asrik laughs] Right? Where everybody goes, “oh, that's fantastic, I'm turning off my water, too, and know what that let me do? That let me do the other following things.” I've had that happen in polyamorous relationships, because we talk about the notion of compersion, right? There's a definition out there for it. How would you define compersion?

    Asrik:
    The… I get compersion and frubble confused.

    Lee:
    They're the same thing, basically, from my understanding.

    Asrik:
    Okay. The joy you feel in another partner's joy, especially when that other partner is playing or being with somebody else. It's, you know, sitting at home while your partner is out on a date, thinking, “oh, I'm so excited. He or she is with a total hottie, and they're having so much fun” and just being happy in that moment that your partners are out doing something else.

    Lee:
    Right, and I've had some people who have said to me, I could never be in a polyamorous relationship. The notion of compersion, my jealousy factor is too high. I just don't go there. And I had a moment happen with a lover of mine in the Bay Area, where, you know, he and I went on a date, everything was lovely. The next night, you know, passes. It's now two days afterwards. And I'm at a coffee shop and his one of his other lovers comes up to me and goes, “Oh my God, you make great guacamole.” And I'm like, what? And she said to me that she was one of those people that did not believe in compersion, does not believe in frubble, does not believe in any of these notions.

    But she had come over for dinner, the night after I'd come over. And the two of them, you know, he and she were cuddled up, and watching a movie, and he brought out the fresh salsa and fresh guacamole that I made the night before. And she's eating this, she's like, “oh, where'd you buy these?” And he's like, “no, no, Lee made these.” And she just paused and went, “really? He makes really good guacamole.” And for the first time, she actually had an actual tangible reason that polyamory works. That polyamory didn't just work, but made her life better. And I would love to live in a world where, when we deal with environmentalism, no, really, it's not just a nice thing to do, it's not just a thing we have to do, but it's a thing that makes everyone win. Everyone, and everything, win. That would delight me.

    Asrik:
    Yeah. There are actually examples of this. The specific example that immediately comes to mind is this relationship that businesses came up with in a European country, the name of which is escaping me right now. And there's a city that has a coal power plant. And there were deliberations and dilemmas, about what to do with some of the waste products that come through the coal plant. And it was very polluted, there was a lot of pollution. And what do we do this? What landfill can we put to it? How do we handle this?

    And because of the way, because of the culture, because of a variety of things, but not because of regulation or mandated or anything, a set of businesses in that community stepped up and actually looked at how to handle the different products that are coming into and out of this coal plant. So there was a company that needed sulfur, and a product of sulfur happens to be one of the waste products from this coal plant. There was a company that needed a certain kind of gas, which they found out was a waste product of this coal plant. So you had this whole community, which sprung up around taking advantage of the so-called “waste” from this coal plant, and everybody benefited. All of the businesses were able to improve their economic outlook, the pollution was less, the community was less, everybody benefited.

    And that touches on an idea that I think is really important to emphasize, is that “waste” is a concept that, especially when it comes to products, I have issue with. There should be no waste. Waste is food. And a huge step towards becoming environmentally friendly is accepting that - that waste is food. That there is no place, or no product, which should be just pushed off and forgotten. That we can take advantage of every waste product.

    And I feel like that's applicable to relationships, in some way. And this ties back to what we were talking about - wasting time. Wasting, you know, time in a relationship. There's no such thing as wasted time.

    Lee:
    [chuckles] No, I totally hear that, and yet, it's something that I hear people talk about. The, “oh yeah, we just wasted a couple of hours.” And I actually had that happen earlier this year, where I had surgery back in November - last November - and I was talking to a friend of mine, Brent, who is somebody that's appeared on various parts of my journals a number of times, because he's one of those people that smashes my brain against a rock, and see what happens - in a loving way, right? He tends to shake up my brain and see what comes out the other side.

    And I was mentioning to him, like, “oh, I've been out of, you know, I haven't done any work for three weeks. I've been doing nothing but recovery. I'm totally wasting all my time. All I've been able to do is watch movies.” And he's like, “no, you've been very, very busy.” Like, “what are you talking about? I've been, like, in bed rest. I've been unable to get out of bed other than to pee. What are you talking about?” He's like, “no, you've been very busy knitting, cellularly knitting.”

    And it's just like, “oh, I hadn't thought of it that way,” and it led me to comparing it actually with something that Lolita Wolf told me, that she and I were going to be driving somewhere, okay, we'll find some way to occupy the time. And she went, “no, we're driving there together. That means we get to have excellent conversations in the car. There is no wasted time.”

    And I see that happening in sexuality communities on occasion, where it's starting to grow out that, no, really, people want to be on the setup and teardown crew for events, because they get to spend excellent time with people, and they get to totally dork out and build tighter-knit parts of their community, because these are the eight guys and the three women for the setup, and these are the eight people that are running registration, and these are the whatever, that actually get to be more immersive in the experience while also happy to get to give back.

    Asrik:
    Yeah.

    Lee:
    And I think that might like being aware of that “not wasting,” I think could build more sustainable communities.

    Asrik:
    Yeah. And I absolutely agree, and it's about approaching what you're doing with the perspective of getting the most out of it that you possibly can. Of learning, wringing every lesson, and experience, and happiness from every moment that you can. And if you think, “wow, this was a waste of time,” you aren't getting…you aren’t sucking the marrow out of life.

    Lee:
    [laughs] Nice.

    Asrik:
    And I completely agree, though.

    Lee:
    I love that idea of you're not sucking the marrow out of life. That's very visually evocative to me. And it also, for myself at least, it reminds me of, you know, okay, cool, I didn't like that class. I didn't get anything profound out of that pagan ritual that I went to. I had that moment where I went to Barbara Carrellas’s class on tantric woo breathing, and all I got out of it…it was kind of feeling vaguely itchy laying on the grass. Right? But that doesn't mean I didn't get anything out of it. It means that I now have language for the next time to kind of, like, spark the fire.

    Asrik:
    And I completely agree, because where we go on our journey is not just about finding the thing that attracts us. It's about figuring out which ways we don't want to go.

    Lee:
    Ooh, fair. That’s fair.

    Asrik:
    And if we, every time we go to an event like that, or we have an experience like that, we learn another thing about us, that makes us so much better and so much faster at figuring out what kind of things do attract us, what kind of things do want us, where do we want to go, as long as we don't dismiss it. And just as long as we say, okay, I didn't like this experience or I didn't connect with it for these reasons, and it applies in this way to what I actually want to do, instead of saying, oh, that was a waste of time.

    Lee:
    Right, and just waste, and literally wasting it, right? Where there is no positive byproduct, there is no Freecycle of our emotional experience. [laughs] Because I think there should be, we should be able to have some sort of Freecycle system in our life, and God, there's some poly communities that constantly have a Freecycle, but that's its own separate conversation.

    One last thing I want to ask before we kind of wrap it on up, is that I was reading recently the description for a class you did at Dark Odyssey Summer Camp, which was called “After Care for Spirituality and Cathartic Scenes.” And one thing that really jumped out at me was you were saying at the end of the description, “whether you are someone new to exploring sexuality, spirituality, and catharsis, or whether you are someone who can recite Radical Ecstasy backwards and forwards, you are welcome to join us,” or something along those lines.

    And for folks who haven't read it at home, Radical Ecstasy is by Dossie Easton and Janet Hardy, but it made me curious. Sexuality and spirituality resources, if you were to offer a couple, what jump out at you as ones that you have been really inspired by, whether it's websites, books, anything that you have been jumping at recently around sexuality and spirituality.

    Asrik:
    Okay, I'm going to be, I'm going to show my biases here.

    Lee:
    Feel free.

    Asrik:
    And I know that there are tons and tons of books out there on things. I hear people say good things about Annie Sprinkle, and I…

    Lee:
    Give me your passions.

    Asrik:
    My passions. I am a sadist and a masochist, so you will hear a lot about that. I really like your book on sacred kink, and I like the anthology that you put out, Spirit of Desire.

    Lee:
    Yeah, some really amazing authors who contributed to that project.

    Asrik:
    And I like…We said Radical Ecstasy. I love Dark Moon Rising by Raven Kaldera, it's a great one. There's another one called Sacred Pain.

    Lee:
    Okay.

    Asrik:
    And I hope you'll put up the notes, because I feel like the name is Ariel Glucklich, or something like that.

    Lee:
    Yeah, I read that when I was doing a project on self-injury.

    Asrik:
    Yes. And I think that's an interesting perspective. For me, I like some of the books, and especially picture books, that Fakir Musafar has put out, although it's not quite as much explicitly sexual, I feel like there's some interesting things that I learned.

    And I'd actually say… I don't rave about FetLife groups often, but I do feel like there are a couple of groups on FetLife. If you just do a search on spirituality and pain, you can find them, and hopefully we can put them up in the podcast notes, that are not too bad.

    Lee:
    Cool. And then the flip side of that is, if people were only to read three to four environmentalism books, what would be your juiciest points right now?

    Asrik:
    Okay, I would read Cradle to Grave by William McDonough and… other person that I can't remember.

    Lee:
    [laughs] Podcast notes.

    Asrik:
    Yeah, I would read The Ecology of Commerce by Paul Hawken, and I would read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn.

    Lee:
    Yeah, Ishmael was stunning.

    Asrik:
    And I do want to mention, I'm sorry about it, resources on sexuality and spirituality. We talk about books, but so much of what I've learned has been through conferences and events. Specifically, I'll plug Dark Odyssey, and that's sort of geographically based, but if you can make it out, it's something where I learned a lot.

    Lee:
    Yeah, if you're not on - because those are all on the East Coast in the greater DC/Maryland area - there's a group down in Fort Myer, Florida, that's also doing some really fantastic crossover work. Twisted Tryst, which takes place in Indiana and Wisconsin, is doing some really fascinating crossover stuff in Ohio. You've got the Adventures in Sexuality crew doing some really fantastic stuff. Butchman's Academy, down in Arizona, and there's a couple of groups in the Northwest that are doing some things as well. So it's really interesting to see how different regions are picking things up.

    And if I remember correctly, coming up in the next few weekends, they - well actually, Halloween weekend, if you're in New York, is the Sacred Sexuality Roundup, which is going to be happening here.

    And then over in London, if we have any UK listeners right now, there is a sexuality, spirituality, and pleasure crossover conference that's happening, that I happen to know about because a friend of mine, London Faerie, is one of the coordinators for it. So we'll try to put these all in the podcast notes, for people who are all over the US and the UK.

    And, as a note, if you are listening, if you have other events, other books, other things that you would like to plug, I've been constantly updating my sacred kink resource guide online, and I would love further ideas, so please send those my way.

    Asrik, thank you so, so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it.

    Asrik:
    Well, thank you for asking me. I'm honored.

    Lee:
    Yum, yum, yum.

    And as I mentioned before, for people who have any questions around sexuality, spirituality, kink, gender, connection, whatever, right? Anything you want to ask me, feel free to drop me an e-mail at Lee, L-E-E, at passionandsoul.com with the question, the subject line “Ask Lee,” and I'll get to them either on the podcast or on my column there at my website.

    If you want to get a hold of Asrik, his website is Cartographers, which is C-A-R-T-O-G-R-A-P-H-E-R-S of, O-F Transgression, T-R-A-N-S-G-R-E-S-S-I-O-N dot wordpress.com, and he can be found there or on FetLife as...

    Asrik:
    We'll put it up in the notes.

    Lee:
    Okay, fantastic, because it's spelled some interesting way, right? I love those. You could also find me, Lee Harrington, anywhere on the internet by pretty much searching for Lee Harrington or PassionAndSoul, anywhere on FetLife, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, DeviantArt, it's everywhere.

    And thank you. Thank you so much, for you who are listening at home, or sitting on your commute, or who are listening to this covertly while working your 9-to-5 job, wherever you are. Thank you for joining us, fellow adventurers of sexuality and spirit. This has been Erotic Awakening with Lee Harrington, and until next time, stay cool, have fun, be authentically you, and don't do anything that your spirit doesn't move you to do. Have a fantastic journey.

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